Training vs. Conditioning
| May 3, 2010 | Posted by Melinda under Uncategorized |
I have come to several conclusions this week, the greatest one being:
A great dressage horse may make a good endurance horse, but a great endurance horse doesn’t necessarily make the best dressage mount.
Other, lesser conclusions are:
1. God gives me the horses I need, rather than the horses I want
2. Those horses will develop within me humility and character.
I think one of the things that makes a strong endurance horse is also what makes a poor dressage horse – an independent mind that is capable of problem solving and making good decisions.
Yes, I know that we are talking about an animal whose brain in the size of a walnut. I try to avoid significantly anthormorphizing animals, but I’m convinced that horses have a reasoning power far beyond what their physical attribute suggests.
One of the things I value about Farley is her mind and ability to keep both of us safe on the trail, even when I’m not holding up my end of the partnership. Many many times she has “covered” for me on the trail – going up cardiac hill at American River because I couldn’t dismount, babysitting me in the dark at 20 MT 100, and getting me back to camp after I became hopelessly lost at wild west.
If she’s tired or sore, I WANT her to tell me so I encourage her let me know and to communicate and give me feedback on what I’m asking her to do.
Unfortunately, this independent spirit manifests itself in the dressage court and is less than desirable…
Sometimes Farley decides she doesn’t want to do circles or serpentines, or really much of anything. Cantering, especially, is the first thing to “go” when she decides she has a different agenda for the day.
Most of the time she plays along.
At Friday’s lesson she didn’t.
It was awful. She played along for about 10 minutes and then I couldn’t do much of anything with her. It ended with me saying to my trainer “I can’t do it” and then she got on and schooled her for me.
By the end of the lesson I was seriously doubting our ability to show even Training 1 next Saturday. All the progress made in the last 8 months seemed to be gone in one fell swoop. I was frustrated and disappointed. What was going on?
But then Saturday I schooled her and she was fine. Really good actually. And focused for much longer than usual. Thirty to forty minutes is usually Farley’s max for quality arena schooling and I stayed on 60-70 minutes. Apparently Saturday she decided she wanted to play.
Which got me thinking (not for the first time) – how well trained do we really want our e-horses? I don’t particularly want my e-horse to do canter departures from a halt, I don’t want them to stop if I’m not looking at the right spot or not using my seat in the right manner. I want her to stop on the trail if something is not right, but I don’t see it.
Is it too much for me to expect for her to know that she MUST move off my leg in the dressage court, but that she has a choice on the trail if something is wrong? That when I ask for a canter in the court it is not a suggestion, nor are we going to discuss it?
It’s that strange mix/balance of obedience and free will that an e-horse must have that is difficult to judge and train for. What is the horses’s motive for doing something? Did they think it was appropriate to grab a bite because it’s an allowable situation, or are they ignoring cues and grabbing a bite in defiance of the rider? One I’m OK with and is even desirable, but the other is a no-no.
I want to be fair to my horse and not confuse her, which makes it difficult to draw absolute boundaries.
*It’s not OK to walk past my shoulder with yours – except when it is….like when you have to pass me so I can tail up a hill.
*It’s OK to eat in any bit except your dressage bit.
*It’s OK to want to go slower on the trail, but not OK in the dressage court.
*It’s OK to ignore my seat on the trail, but not in the court
*I will never ever give you the cue to canter from a standstill at a ride. I promise. But I might ask in the court.
Because of all this, I probably have a better e-horse than dressage horse.
Sometimes I wonder if my lack of insisting on complete obedience on the trail has its consequences in some of her bad behavior at rides – at approximately 1 out of 7 starts she behaves like a fire eating dragon at the start. She won’t always stand for boot issues if other horses are passing us on the trail. Sometimes, she pulls on me to go back to camp faster than I would like. If the pulse down for a gate into hold is within sight of camp but not IN camp, I have a very hard time getting her to stand and be quiet. Am I sabatoging myself by not asking for complete obidennce all the time?
But, 90% of the time she is so very good and she does her job so well and takes care of herself so well, I think that I have struck an appropriate balance of a horse that listens to me but also takes care of herself. And possibly, if I insisted on micro managing her more we wouldn’t be as successful. I’m giving her room to train ME and on more than one occasion she has gotten me through a ride, not the other way around. Would I lose that if she was “better” trained?
There are a couple of cardinal rules that are to never EVER be broken and she understands those (like never EVER invading my space or bumping into me) – maybe I need more of these? But which ones?
Anyone else running into contradictory training issues? Any insights? Am I asking too much of my horse to understand that trail time is her time, and arena time is my time?
I’m not giving up dressage – it’s too valuable for both of us. It’s like going to couples therapy – we are learning to communicate and understand each other, and specific skills such as conflict resolution. But it is so different from endurance it makes me question how it all fits together – which is a good thing.
you said:
*It’s not OK to walk past my shoulder with yours – except when it is….like when you have to pass me so I can tail up a hill.
I think: It’s okay to be “inconsistent” with those because you are probably giving her some kind of invisible body cue for the tailing thing that she might pick up on that you may never even realize you’re doing. Like the horses that “know” how to count.
you said:
*It’s OK to want to go slower on the trail, but not OK in the dressage court.
I think: I think it’s okay here too, because I think in the arena you’re always changing what you’re doing, and dressage tests have so many different movements that hte horse is always looking to you for guidance, so maybe rather than a half halt you’d end up having to push her forward w/ legs but I think as a horse she’s probably always going to “volunteer” to do her own thing – I always try to anticipate if my horse wants to slow down before she does so that when she does it it’s “my” idea…but that won’t always work. I don’t know.
you said:
*It’s OK to ignore my seat on the trail, but not in the court
I think: I’m not sure if that one is a great idea as a general rule. I’d probably suggest to insist on obedience more often than not. In the instance where you’re exhausted and don’t have the energy to reinforce the cue, she’ll likely take over anyway, I’d think.
All this from someone who hasn’t ever completed an AERC ride, or taken formal dressage training! But I have competed in shows, and I have done trail riding. I think the more consistent you can be both in the arena and on the trail the easier it will be on you both…but I also think it’s okay to have a different set of rules in both places. My old gelding did the versatility class successfully: western, english, halter/showmanship, and contesting (barrels or poles). I think they’re capable of adapting to different sets of rules as long as you try to stay consistant as much as possible.
I think it’s totally reasonable to ask for different behavior in and out of the arena. Ask a barrel racer or cowhorse person who also trail rides the same horse. Horses *know* the arena has different rules.
More later on a bigger keyboard!
I like this post. I agree with you and what Nicole is saying. It’s hard to be good at everything. For horse or human.
Riding, especially endurance riding, is a partnership. You want your horse to talk to you so you know if he/she is tired or hurting or thinks the trail is this way/not that or thirsty, or hungry, etc. Or is telling you I can do this better at a canter than a trot. Or I need to slow down now. It’s our job to then decide if yes, we will do what you are wanting or no I think it’s best not to do that.
Michelle
I’ve decided that what I like about doing both dressage and endurance is that:
a. I am a better rider now than when I was “just” a trail rider–and my horse is more comfortable because I am able to help her
and
b. I am a better trainer now, because I am teaching her two very different sets of skills. Therefore, I’ve had to learn not only what to teach, but also how this horse learns.
Those two things have made me kinder and more observant. I think that’s a good thing.
**Sometimes I wonder if my lack of insisting on complete obedience on the trail has its consequences in some of her bad behavior at rides – at approximately 1 out of 7 starts she behaves like a fire eating dragon at the start. She won’t always stand for boot issues if other horses are passing us on the trail. Sometimes, she pulls on me to go back to camp faster than I would like. If the pulse down for a gate into hold is within sight of camp but not IN camp, I have a very hard time getting her to stand and be quiet. Am I sabatoging myself by not asking for complete obidennce all the time?**
You have to train them for all the above, and be consistent. I teach all our horses the word STAND, and that means, they dang sure better do so, no matter what is going on around them. If I have a tack adjustment on the trail, or waiting in line for a vet, I expect my horse to be good, and stand when I ask. I know you mentioned you let her walk off as you mount her. I’d add that to the same group of issues above. You have not taught her to do otherwise. I may be over demanding in this area, but my horses are not allowed to move a single foot when I mount. A single foot leads to walking off, and the last think I want is a horse that does not stand still when mounting. Never know when I may get hurt while riding, and need to get back on in less than the best condition, or, be trying to get back on along some narrow trail. And by my being demanding on the whole stand issue, I have a horse who in general, listens to me on the ground, respects my space, and in general, does not act naughty.
We allow behavior in our own animals (and kids) that we would not tolerate in someone elses. I am guilty of this, and some times we need to look at our horse as if it was one we never met, and would we tolerate their actions.
Hey txtrigger, how do you teach your horses to stand?
Repetition. Horses can learn verbal cues, and I use them a lot. Whoa and stand are the first two, and they have different meanings. Because we also competed in carriage driving events, the horses needed to learn the meaning of stand. So, WHOA, is to stop moving, and STAND is what we use when we have already stopped, or on the ground, and they start to figit. The short version is, in hand, stop them, and say STAND. If they start to move, we put them back in the spot we stopped them, check on lead, say STAND. They step forward, we back them to the spot we told them STAND, and check on them, tell them STAND again. You can’t just stop them in the spot they may have moved into, or crept forward. They grasp it quicker, when you place them back where you had them, and say STAND. When mounting, if they start to move off, we hop back down, and check on them, and put them back where they were, and say STAND. If they move after mounted, before asked, again, same as on the ground. Back where we had them, tell them STAND. Time consuming, but worth it for me. Last endurance ride, someone departed their horse, and we had to go find it. Hank got tangled in a bramble, and started to panic. I told him a very firm STAND, and he froze. I later found a gash on a pastern where a thorn cut him. Standing there was not something he wanted to do when the bramble was grabbing him, but I was able to dismount, and cut them away without a huge blow up. (sorry Mel, I rambled in the comment area. lol)
I love this post and it illustrates exactly how I feel about working with horses. I put my foot down when it comes to anything that I can tell is unsafe, for either me or the horse. Other than that, alot of times, my horse has just as much say as I do. For me, it’s a matter of respecting the horse’s viewpoint and needing to rely on it every so often. I trust myself in traffic more than my horse (and she does too). But in the wild, I trust my horse to tell me things my own senses could never tell me (there’s a mountain lion around). I DO anthropomorphize my horses. Of course I keep in mind that they often relate and think differently than myself. But the funny thing is, most often, they cooperate in the most amazing ways when I treat them like equals. It’s not always possible, but I feel like it really works for us. It’s a give and take kind of thing. Anyways, my 2 cents. I had to reply cause I felt like you were saying what I was always thinking when talking to other people about training.
I use “stand” and “whoa” in the same way you do (txtrigger). Probably because of my background in driving as well.
Are you saying that not having her stand to mount is contributing to the overall “stand” problems in stressful situations? I never really connected the two. She IS trained to stand and knows what it means, but as I look back I realize (because I ride by myself) the only time the “stand” command is really tested is at rides and I’m likely NOT to ask for her to stand because I don’t know if I can enforce it….
I don’t ask her to stand when mounting and never have, BUT I could start, so I could reinforce the stand cue (not necessarily because I care that she stands still for mounting). I actually find it easier to mount as she’s moving, but I CAN do it from a standstill – I just need to stop being lazy. 🙂
Very good information for thought. Here’s my plan:
In the next few weeks work extensively on the “stand” command on my trail ridees (perferably while headed home) and while mounted (not because I care that she’s still while I mount, but because I care that she REALLY learns the stand command).
I will also practice at wild west. – – having the vet checks right outside camp will be a PERFECT opportunity. She will work on standing and I will work on not getting frusterated and yelling. 🙂
Thanks everyone for the honest feedback. Keep it coming!
I’d be curious to hear your results with the stand work at home, then see if you get better results/ attention from her at the ride. Kind of a mini science fair project. 😉
txtrigger’s suggestion is EXCELLENT! Keep us posted, Mel!
WHAAAA!!! My comment didn’t post 🙁
I just posted to say that in order to create the maximum amount of stand reinforcement I’ve decided not to tie her for 3 weeks. She gets put in the general vincitiy of my trailer etc and told to stnad while I do tacking, hosing off, grooming etc. So far so good. She knows what stand means, I think I’ve just under utilized it…..ie – situations that I could use to reinforce it I don’t, and then I’m not sure I could “win” the battle of standing at a ride so I don’t ask. That changes! LOL. I’ll keep you posted.
what i think about color saddle pads is that Color saddle pads look very beautiful.Don’t go for white for everyday riding, use different color pads.And more it depends on the color of the saddle, I ve seen One of my friend bought black color new western show saddle and he use white color pads with the saddle.That looks awesome color combintaion while riding.I hope you also try new color combination.